Talking with the Dad of an Adolescent Menstruator with a Bleeding Disorder

Okay.

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So I'd like to welcome everyone

this episode of the flow.

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Today I have a special guest with me.

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I've got Emil Wanker with me today and

I'm really pleased to have you here today.

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Thanks for coming Emil.

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So before we start, yeah, before we

start, why don't you tell me, tell the

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audience a little bit about who you are.

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So thank you, Natalie.

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My name is Emil Wanker.

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I am a former president of Hemophilia

Ontario and Recently elected president

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of the Canadian Hemophilia Society.

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I live with severe hemophilia A, and I'm

really excited to be joining the flow.

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I've watched the development of

Heroics very closely, and I'm so

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excited to take part and contribute.

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This is wonderful.

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Excellent.

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Well, I'm so glad that you're with us.

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Now, before we really get into our

topic, maybe you could tell us a

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little bit about your experience

of living with a bleeding disorder.

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Sure.

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I was diagnosed with severe

hemophilia A at 16 months old.

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As a teetering toddler, I

fell and I split my lip.

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Open on our living room coffee

table when it hadn't healed properly

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and was still bleeding after three

days, my parents figured something

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is amiss and they took me to the E.

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R.

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and where they got my diagnosis.

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Eventually we had no family

history of hemophilia at all.

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And so my diagnosis was a complete

surprise to my parents and who

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they themselves were recently.

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immigrants to Canada from Holland.

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So they had no extended

family to fall back on.

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And that made their experience

as, parents of a newly diagnosed

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child, especially difficult.

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I grew up within our bleeding

disorders community here in Ontario.

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I went to our summer camps where I

got to meet other boys who, who had

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the same condition as me and who were

experiencing similar issues as me.

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And I've experienced a wealth

of leadership opportunities and

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everything through my involvement

with the bleeding disorders community.

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So, in many respects, I'm very

grateful for my experience

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living with a bleeding disorder.

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It doesn't come without its drawbacks.

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I have an arthropic left elbow and

I have a very restrictive right hip.

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So I've certainly got some mobility

issues that are absolutely

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attributable to my bleeding disorder.

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But All in all, I consider it part of

me and I'm very grateful for everything

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all the good stuff that's come my way

through through my bleeding disorder.

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Yeah, and such a great

journey of community.

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Absolutely.

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Which is such a wonderful experience

that we hear so much through Humaphilia

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Ontario is that the community that so

many folks feel when they grow up in

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this community because, you know, it's

a smaller community and having that

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available to you is just such a benefit

when you're journeying through an

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experience that not everybody really

understands or knows much about.

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Absolutely, and my parents would be the

first ones to extol the virtues of that.

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I mean, considering they didn't have

their own extended family here in Canada

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to fall back on, they really leaned

into friendships and connections that

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they made with other parents of young

boys who were diagnosed with hemophilia

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around the same time as me, and made

lifelong friendships and connections

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with members of our community, and it

was a huge benefit to them to help them

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process dealing with my diagnosis and

learning all the ins and outs of raising

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a young boy with severe hemophilia.

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But at the end of the day, it's

relationships and connections,

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and they will be the first people

to say it's been a huge benefit.

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Absolutely So I mean, Emil, I've

had the pleasure of working with

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you through hemophilia Ontario, so I

know that you're a dad, but can you

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share how many Children you have if

any of them have a bleeding disorder?

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So I have three daughters who based

on basic hemophilia genetics are what

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are referred to as obligate carriers.

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So I knew that any daughters that

I would have if and when I had

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children, that they would all

inherit my hemophilia gene from me.

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So I was prepared with that

information prior to having my girls.

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I also have a son.

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Who does not have hemophilia.

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So I have four kids.

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My first three were daughters who all of

whom have hemophilia and my son does not.

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So as my understanding of how women are

affected by hemophilia kind of evolved

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throughout my youth, I understood

that women not only carried the gene

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which is what the term carrier kind

of implies, but I knew that women

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were affected by their hemophilia.

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So because I grew up

within this community.

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I was fortunate to have interacted with

women and girls who were affected by other

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bleeding disorders like Von Willebrand's

disease or other rare factor deficiencies.

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And I'd learned from them how their

bleeding disorder affected them,

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especially in ways that were different

from my own experience as a male.

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So when my daughters were born, first off,

I knew that they would have hemophilia.

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But I was determined to understand.

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And know as much as possible about

their condition so I could be

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as prepared as possible for how

it might impact them especially

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before they began to menstruate.

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So I advocated with my clinic really,

really directly to have their factor

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levels tested once they were born.

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And how do you think all that advocacy,

really, and all that knowledge,

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because you were obviously really

well prepared, how do you think

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that has helped both you and them?

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It's I mean, knowledge is power, right?

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So I think being able to ask questions

and and obtain as much information

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as possible as early on as possible

was really, really beneficial.

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I mean, I was fortunate enough to

have a positive open dialogue with

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my hemophiliac care nurse at the time

when I approached her initially about.

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Assessing my daughters for how

they were affected by hemophilia.

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She was somewhat skeptical and not because

she didn't want to, but because I think

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my request was outside of the normal

standard operating procedure at the time.

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We just, we weren't used to

testing girls for hemophilia and

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She eventually came on side and

ultimately joined me in advocating

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for the diagnosis of my daughters.

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And that's something I'm

very, very grateful for.

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But I recognize though that not

everyone has that same experience.

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I mean, for some people, I've heard

horror stories from other individuals

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who just Been climbing this constant

uphill battle and like, banging their

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head against the wall with people

just saying, no, no, we don't do that.

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And they're not interested in

investigating how girls like

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their daughters or even adult

women are impacted by a bleeding

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disorder, especially when it's 1.

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that old knowledge would tell people that

doesn't affect girls, like hemophilia.

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I mean, the old school of thought

was boys have hemophilia, girls are

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carriers, and that's where it ends.

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I mean, we know now that it's different,

and women are absolutely affected.

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If they carry the hemophilia

gene, it absolutely has an

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impact on their bleeding profile.

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And it varies wildly amongst women, which

is, I think, warrants even more attention.

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I think there's no one size fits

all to how your, Hemophilia gene is

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going to impact you as an individual

who bleeds, whether you're male or

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female, whether you menstruate or not.

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It's all different.

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So I think it's all worthy of

investigation, but it was a really

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interesting experience to go through

kind of seeing that initial resistance

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to well, well, no, we know their

carriers and that's all we need to

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know versus me saying, well, no, I

want to know how they're affected.

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Because ultimately, I'm very glad

that I did because my oldest daughter

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her factor levels tested at 32%.

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So, and that falls within the

diagnostic range for mild hemophilia.

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So that kind of blew my mind when I got

that result, because if she were a boy,

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it would have been a very straightforward

case of, yep, you're a hemophiliac.

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But since she was female, it

seemed like it was a peculiar case.

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It seemed like.

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It needed to be considered differently

which I was not having, it's like,

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the blood test shows we're within

the range for mild hemophilia.

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She's a mild hemophiliac.

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So, ultimately, I made the decision to

flat out refer to her as a hemophiliac and

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not a carrier because that's what she is.

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Right.

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My 2nd daughter, her factor levels

came out at 75%, which was really not

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surprising to us because she hasn't

really experienced many bleeding issues.

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So, to see her factor levels come

out at such a high range, which, like

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for the diagnostic criteria, falls

within the normal range for factor.

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Was not surprising at all, but

with my youngest daughter her

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factor levels came out at 50%.

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But, she is highly needlephobic.

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Like, very, very needle phobic.

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And the, the blood draw experience was

an extremely tense and stressful event.

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We know that the stress, that

stress releases stored factors

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in individuals who are capable

of producing their own factors.

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So, I strongly believe that her,

her 50 percent factor level was

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an artificially high reading.

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Because her bleed just based

on her bleeding profile.

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I mean, she constantly has bruises.

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She has nosebleeds all the time.

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So we're, we're going to be

pursuing further testing to try

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and get a more authentic assessment

of her status as a hemophiliac.

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I mean, we already know

that she is a hemophiliac.

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She has the genes.

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So we're just going to wait a little

longer and to try and get a more.

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Comprehensive picture of what her

situation actually is, but for all intents

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and purposes, we regard her as a bleeder

and we take the appropriate precautions.

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Right.

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And you made me think of something

when you were talking and you said how

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even for you, as knowledgeable as you

are, as experienced as you are met with

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resistance about getting testing done.

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Do you have any thoughts for other

parents who might be, cause, I mean,

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you raised, the point that you and

I know and are quite familiar with

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and I'm sure lots of other parents

experience that when they want the

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testing done, they're often refused.

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So any thoughts for

other parents like that?

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I think my situation was really

supported by the fact that I had

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an ongoing positive dialogue with

my clinic team in the first place.

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And so it wasn't, a cold call.

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I wasn't just going into saying,

hi, stranger, please test this

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patient who you don't know.

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I mean, I had a great relationship with my

nurse and I had, I had done my homework.

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I had done the research.

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I knew the facts and I could support

my case for advocating for that draw.

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But that's not to say that other

patients don't, but I think it was,

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it was all part of that, that little

small ecosystem of our relationship.

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Like, my nurse understood that

this wasn't me on a whim asking

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for something and I had really kind

of come, I had made a case for it.

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Ultimately though, I'm very grateful

that my clinic team was open to it.

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I think.

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If you're lucky to have a clinic

team who is open to it it's a

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much easier hill to climb than some

clinic teams who just don't, who

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won't entertain the possibility.

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And, and I think that there's some

work within our, our larger community

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to try and add or educate tho those

clinicians or the clinic staff to

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have a bit more of an open mind.

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I certainly see that tide turning.

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I really do.

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So I hope that as the community develops

a better understanding of how women

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are affected by bleeding disorders.

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And I mean, my experience

is limited to hemophilia.

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That is my personal lens that from

which I'm approaching this situation.

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I mean, I have hemophilia.

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I know that my daughters have hemophilia.

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So my perspective is from a hemophilia

space, but that doesn't mean it doesn't

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apply to other bleeding disorders.

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Either any woman who is affected or any

person who menstruates who is affected

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by a bleeding disorder deserves the same

care and attention from their clinic team.

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But I think as our understanding

as a community evolves.

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And we develop a better understanding

on how women are affected and the.

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Value of understanding women's situations

with their bleeding disorders and

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that comes with testing and, and

factor levels and, and all of that.

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Hopefully that tide will turn and we

will see less resistance on the part of

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clinic teams to get that testing done.

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I don't know if I have a magic bullet

or, a great solution to kind of, you

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know, Change the mind of a clinic who

has said no, we're not going to do that.

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I hope to see that eventually move along

well, and it's so dependent on so many

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factors, but it's great to sometimes

hear from a parent who actually made

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it happen because in so many instances

they're told no, they're told we'll wait.

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It's not necessary.

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Maybe when they can consent,

like all of those things.

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I will say.

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I did get the let's wait.

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I advocated as soon as my girls were born

and I got told, well, no, let's wait until

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they're closer to menstruating, which

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I'm not totally sure

how I feel about that.

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I feel, I almost wonder, like,

if it would have been better to

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just do it as a baby and just

know everything right off the hop.

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But I could see the argument for like,

really menstruation was What we were

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most concerned about knowing that that

was guaranteed bleeding episode that

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they were going to be experiencing.

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Eventually.

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I wanted to make sure that we were as

prepared for that as possible to make

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sure that things didn't go awry when

they didn't have to, if we could avoid

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any needlessly unpleasant situations

with with their menstruation, then let's

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get ahead of that as much as possible.

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But, I mean, reflecting back on

it, There really could not have

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been any harm in knowing earlier.

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I mean, what if they were in

a car accident as a toddler?

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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We should have been able to have that

information as early as possible.

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So I will say I did get

that from my clinic.

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Like it was a, well, no, let's

wait until they're a bit older.

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And I almost wonder too, If doing a

blood draw with my third, for example

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if we would have been able to maybe get

a better reading, really interesting

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understanding of needles and everything.

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Right?

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So, absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And you are right.

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Like, that's what came to my mind.

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Is that for me, that actually doesn't

make sense in the sense of waiting to

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menstruation because what about an injury?

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What about an accident?

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What about all these things?

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And especially in the case where you said.

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For two of your Children, like

that percentage is really low.

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Right.

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So that wouldn't have been

a great time to find out.

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Right.

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So you raise a really, really good point.,

and also I really liked what you brought

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up even around the needle phobia, like

as a younger, you know, as a baby, there

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wouldn't have been, it's not a pleasant

experience anyways, in that situation, but

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not the same needle phobia at that time.

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So there's a, there's a lot of that.

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Kind of going back and

forth in that debate.

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So it is interesting to hear some

of those perspectives around really

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advocating and what it took to

get it actually done in that case.

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And even for you, you

still got the let's wait.

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Right.

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So that's interesting.

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That's really interesting.

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So I was also thinking, I was going to ask

you about in the situation with yourself,

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like you, you reference daughters.

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And of course, I'll be inclusive.

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I'll say for any dads who have

adolescence with the potential to

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menstruate with bleeding disorders,

do you think it's a unique position

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to be a dad in that situation?

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Oh, absolutely.

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Well, and in my household,

I'm very outnumbered.

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I mean, I have a wife and three daughters.

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My son and I, we are

outnumbered two to one.

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For people who menstruate

and people who don't.

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in our household.

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So are people with the

potential to menstruate?

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I should say.

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Because my youngest daughter actually

hasn't started her period but it's coming.

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We're very, very near.

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We can tell.

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The hormone cycle is quite evident.

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I will say.

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I really think, like, as a dad of

adolescent girls going through that,

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I try very much to just be open and

honest and not shy away from any of the

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period talk or any of the discussion

regarding their menstruation because

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for me, I regard it as a bleed.

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I see it as a bleed.

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And so having grown up with a bleeding

disorder myself, bleeds were a big deal.

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You took bleeds very seriously.

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And so I know that my girls are going to

be having a bleed every four ish weeks.

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And so I'm going to take that seriously.

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I want to make sure that everything

is, is on the up and up, that they have

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whatever supplies that they need or

they have that they're feeling okay.

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And maybe at the end of their period

that they're not completely wiped out.

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I mean, Since we were able to obtain

the diagnosis from my oldest before

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she started menstruating we were

prepared We had tranexamic acid for

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her to take because we know that that

helps with with mucosal bleeding.

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We had ferritin She was prescribed

ferritin to help make sure that

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her iron levels didn't drop and

she wasn't completely drained

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at the end of her period.

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She does experience a heavy flow.

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My wife has a heavy flow.

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So we were uber prepared for that

So we go through a lot of feminine

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hygiene products in our house but

we we are well stocked and we make

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sure that we have them on hand.

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We're as prepared as we possibly can we

have very open and honest conversations

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just about periods and flow and

bleeding because, like, our daughters,

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they know, like, they still have that

teenage, ew, dad, ew, my period, like.

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They still have that reaction, but

they know that if I'm asking about

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their period, it's because I have a

genuine concern about their bleeding.

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They know that that's the lens from

which I'm approaching that conversation.

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I don't have this morbid fascination

with their period or anything.

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Like, I'm concerned about bleeding.

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And they know that

that's a big deal for me.

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So, we have really open and

honest conversations about it.

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It's not taboo I mean, it's not

to say that it's like dinnertime

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conversation or anything, but right.

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But we do talk about it probably way

more than a regular family would.

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Well, that's actually

what I was just thinking.

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I thought it was interesting when

you said, you view it as a bleed.

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Now, as you said, in your

house, you're very comfortable.

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You're coming at it from a different lens.

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You have no issues with menstruation.

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But there is a lot of menstrual

stigma in our culture, in our

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institutions, all over the place.

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So not every dad would probably find

themselves, in fairness, Super comfortable

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with that conversation because they

may have been raised that it is taboo.

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It's not to be discussed.

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It's not anything that you talk about

with adolescent menstruators or those

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with the potential to menstruate.

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And when you said you kind of come at

it from a place of this is a bleed.

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Do you think like in terms of

getting over that menstrual stigma?

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sort of barrier for other dads.

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Do you think that would be a

good lens with which to view it?

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Like just take the menstrual stigma

out of it and just view it as a bleed

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or do you have any thoughts on that?

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I absolutely do.

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I think that's kind of helped me to

rationalize it for myself because I mean,

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I grew up with that same tabooness, or

that same stigma surrounding menstruation.

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Like I was raised with that.

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I'm concerned for my daughter's welfare.

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And so that's where I'm coming

at it from a parent and Because I

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myself am a hemophiliac and I have

just been, it's been ingrained into

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me to make sure that you manage

bleeding properly and everything.

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I just, that was the most appropriate

mind frame to put it into for myself.

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And I think it makes a lot of sense.

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But I think talking about menstruation

with your daughters should be

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akin to like talking with your

kids about brushing their teeth.

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Right?

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Like, it's not something you're going

to bring up all the time, but if you are

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bringing it up, it's probably because

you're concerned about it a little bit,

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or you want to remind them that, you know,

this, we've got to make sure that we're

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taking care of this properly because of

such and such and such wellness reasons.

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Right.

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It should be the same

thing for other periods.

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Like, you want to make sure that

they're, you're bringing it up regularly.

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That is just a topic of conversation

related to their wellness.

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And for adolescents who menstruate or

who have the propensity to menstruate,

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it is part of their wellness.

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It is an aspect of their wellness.

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it isn't the case for my son, but

it certainly is for my daughters.

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So I think it's just another facet of

that conversation that We just add in

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and we've normalized it in our household.

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And I think the more proactive you can be

in normalizing it, the easier it becomes.

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I mean, was I comfortable going into the

grocery store and buying three boxes of

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pads the first couple of times I did it?

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Absolutely not.

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I mean, societal stigma

still feels very, very real.

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But nowadays, I don't care at all.

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I invite the questions, so.

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But it's neat that you said that because,

you know, you present as very comfortable

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with the topic, which maybe other dads

wouldn't even be able to relate to, but

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I like that you said, Actually, in the

beginning, I wasn't comfortable either.

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I wasn't comfortable going

into the grocery store.

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That conversation wasn't

exactly comfortable for me.

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And I, I like that because what you're

saying is it wasn't always this easy.

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There was a time it was really awkward,

but you were able to kind of work

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through it and working through it

was really about continuing to do it.

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100%.

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It absolutely is a journey and

It's when you go through together.

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It's not, this is not some personal

journey of self discovery that I've gone

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on with regard to my daughter's periods.

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This is some, this is a journey we've

gone on together and like we've been

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traveling or we were traveling when my

second daughter got her first period

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and I will say we were underprepared.

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So we were going into this random

grocery or a drugstore in this community.

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We've never been into before.

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And it was me going in there to buy her

products and everything because we needed

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to make sure that we had what we needed.

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But it's been a journey we've gone

on together as a family, and we, it

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started with some really open and honest

conversations, which I will recognize

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that not everyone might be comfortable

having right off the hop, so I, I

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probably did have a bit of a leg up,

but, like, to my point earlier, like,

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it's not to say that I was as comfortable

as I am now, right from the get go.

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Absolutely not.

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Yeah, that's fair.

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And I think it's helpful

for other dads to know that.

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Yeah.

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So how do you think other dads could best

support their children or adolescents with

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bleeding disorders, especially around the

potential to menstruate and menstruating?

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How do you think they

can best support them?

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I think having those open and honest

conversations And just trying to

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break down some of that teenager

stigma or teenage reactions.

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Cause the first time any dad's gonna

bring that up with their daughter, it's

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probably gonna be like, Ugh, dad, why

are you talking about this or whatever?

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Like, you're gonna get that

reaction from your teen or preteen.

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I mean, my daughter started at 11, so it

was a bit of a different conversation.

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But, it's So I think just having those

conversations and then not backing down

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because if you get that comment, that

reaction from your teen or your preteen,

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it's very easy as a parent to just

be like, fine, talk with your mother

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right.

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No, you, let me know when you're

ready to talk about it, which there

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is a time and a place for that, but

I, I did not give up that easily.

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And I don't think all parents should.

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It was something I just kept

revisiting and kept coming back

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to and just bringing it up very.

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Openly and frankly it wasn't a

whispered conversation or anything

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like, Hey, let's talk about your period.

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So I noticed you're, you're

in this point of your cycle.

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Are, do you have enough products

on hand or I took out the garbage.

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I noticed you're in the middle of

everything is how is your bleeding?

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Is everything going?

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All right.

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Like, just bringing it up as naturally

as possible, which granted for most

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dads is going to be a huge thing

to overcome for themselves, too.

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But I think that's 1 of the best

ways that you can support your

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adolescent menstruators is just by.

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Showing them that you're in it with them.

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No, you're not menstruating alongside

with them, but show them that

438

they are not alone in experiencing

what they're experiencing.

439

They have a support system.

440

They have someone who is concerned and

who is aware of what's going on with them.

441

Even though you might not be

experiencing it personally

442

yourself, just showing to them that.

443

You know that they're going through

something and you're there for them.

444

You're willing to support them.

445

However, you possibly can.

446

Hopefully they're receptive to that.

447

And I think that that is a

great way to support them.

448

I think for my situation and for

other fathers with a bleeding

449

disorder who know that they're going

to be passing that down to their

450

daughters, whether it's von Willebrand

disease, or whether it's hemophilia.

451

Knowing that I was going to

have daughters, I advocated.

452

So if you are a hemophiliac and you

are having children, know that your

453

daughters will have hemophilia as well.

454

And when you do have a daughter,

take those steps and advocate for

455

your daughter with your clinic team.

456

And maybe push a little hard to get

an earlier diagnosis but just try

457

and get as much testing as you can.

458

Just gather that knowledge

because knowledge is power.

459

Yeah, any information you can gather

with respect to your child's bleeding

460

disorder will help you in the long run.

461

It can only benefit you.

462

Which is great advice really for all

dads with adolescent menstruators, right?

463

Having that conversation and having that

support, is such a great thing for all,

464

but particularly if that adolescent also

has a bleeding disorder and it is a little

465

more reminiscent of dealing with a bleed.

466

And I kind of like how you framed

that because although It's not maybe

467

a bleed like you said you would have

it's still a monthly bleed that is

468

typically more excessive than an

average menstrual period, right?

469

So, I liked that way of just kind of

journeying through making it really frank.

470

It whispers or embarrassing.

471

And I also liked your thoughts around

like at first they are going to say,

472

Hey, Ew, I'm not having this conversation

with you, right, because it's not just

473

our families that create that stigma.

474

It's everywhere.

475

So they've got to overcome some of that

in their house, nothing to do with you.

476

So I like that you're like,

okay, I'm not forcing myself on

477

it, but I'm gently revisiting.

478

Yeah, going back going.

479

You know what?

480

This is a concern.

481

I want to support.

482

I want to make sure everything's okay.

483

Let's have this frank conversation and

kind of just gently sort of going back

484

into it where it sounds like in your case,

eventually they've just gotten used to it.

485

Yeah, very much.

486

And I mean, there's a distinction.

487

I think just hearing you say back to

me, I think there's a distinction to be

488

made to between discretion and stigma.

489

And so I think you can still be discreet

about dealing with with menstruation.

490

And because I think.

491

Any teenager is going to want that

and appreciate that, but you can

492

still have those conversations,

but be discreet about it.

493

But like I said, like, it's not

typically dinner conversation, but

494

it's something we're going to bring up.

495

And yeah, I'm not going to do it in the

middle of the grocery store with them,

496

or I'm not going to do it with, like, in

front of their friends or anything, but I

497

am going to revisit those conversations.

498

Because as a parent, you have

conversations all the time with

499

your child, and those opportunities

for those discreet conversations.

500

Conversations come up and I, but

I think there is is a valuable

501

distinction to be made there because.

502

I think it's still more discretion because

it is after all a personal experience.

503

Right?

504

So I'm not going to put it on blast.

505

I'm not going to broadcast it out

to the world, but I'm going to

506

make sure that you know that I'm

there for you and I'm supportive.

507

And what have you found it easiest

to have those conversations, just

508

as an example, just or in the car.

509

I mean, I'm often driving my kids

to various activities or whatever.

510

So we have a lot of one on one time.

511

So our lifestyle just lends

itself really well to that.

512

But yeah, evenings.

513

Like when you're kind of just kind

of slowing down and getting ready

514

for for sleep and everything and

just kind of throwing it out there.

515

Be like, hey, everything.

516

All right.

517

I'm getting ready for bed or whatever

or or 1st thing in the morning.

518

I mean, it's usually me and 1

of my daughters in the kitchen.

519

1st thing in the morning.

520

I'm making coffee and she's pouring

yogurt and it's just the 2 of us.

521

So those little moments that you can

steal where it's just the 2 of you.

522

And then I'll relay whatever concerns or

anything relevant, I'll share it back with

523

my wife as well, because we are a team.

524

Yeah.

525

And we approach it together, but even

if it's me that has that conversation,

526

I'll share it with her, and likewise,

she'll share things with me, because

527

she knows that I'm very proactive when

it comes to my daughter's bleeding.

528

So, insofar as my wife is probably much

more the expert on the menstruation

529

specific side of it than I am, we share

that information, and because we're both

530

coming at it from very different angles.

531

Right, so, Emile, last question that

I had for you is, do you have any

532

other advice that you would give dads?

533

With adolescent menstruators or

with the potential to menstruate

534

with a bleeding disorder.

535

Any other advice to throw out for them?

536

I think like I've kind of already

mentioned this as well, but I

537

think think of it as a bleed.

538

I think if you yourself have a

bleeding disorder, and you've kind

539

of been like, trained throughout your

life to take bleed seriously, and

540

you got it, you develop that spidey

sense for yourself and everything.

541

You're not going to have a spidey

sense for your bleed as a menstruator,

542

but it is still a bleeding episode.

543

And so if you would take it seriously

for yourself, if you were bleeding that

544

much, take it seriously for your child.

545

So if you know that they are going to

be experiencing that monthly bleed,

546

Think of it, come at it from that angle.

547

I think it makes it a lot easier to

approach those conversations, especially

548

for men who aren't used to talking

openly or frankly about menstruation.

549

Don't think of it as a period,

but think of it as a bleed.

550

I think that's really been helpful but

ultimately normalizing that conversation.

551

to have this stigma around menstruation.

552

It happens, it's It's part of the

reproductive cycle for humans.

553

It's necessary.

554

It's normal.

555

Let's get over it and just deal with it.

556

Yeah, no, yeah, for sure.

557

Well, thank you so much, Emil.

558

This was really helpful.

559

And I think it's really interesting

to get the perspective of a dad

560

for, you know, everybody to sort of

hear what that looks like, what that

561

experience is, how to help support.

562

How to help prepare.

563

And I think you had a really a lot of

really rich contributions around what

564

folks can really pull from as parents.

565

But also if you were an adolescent

menstruator or someone with the potential

566

to menstruate listening and maybe

wanting to take some takeaways from that.

567

So thanks so much for

doing this with me today.

568

No problem, Natalie.

569

It's my pleasure.

570

Thank you for having me.